As generative AI continues its meteoric and disruptive rise a recent controversy emerged around a novel called “Shy Girl.” It is the first known instance of a major publisher canceling a book due to suspected AI generation.
“Shy Girl” is a horror novel written by Mia Ballard. It was originally self-published in early 2025, then after getting significant online attention and positive reviews Hachette Book Group acquired it and published it under their sci-fi/fantasy imprint, Orbit, in the UK in late 2025 with a major US release schedule for the spring of 2026.
But after accusations of AI use arose online, and The New York Times published an expose and shortly after Hachette cancelled the U.S. release and issued a statement reaffirming its commitment to "original creative expression" and noted that authors are required to disclose any use of AI. Mia Ballard has consistently denied using AI to write "Shy Girl" and blamed a freelance acquaintance she had hired to edit the original self-published version, claiming the editor must have used AI without her knowledge.
Our guest says the "Shy Girl" story is just the tip of the iceberg. Joshua Lisec is an acclaimed ghostwriter who has ghostwritten more than 110 books and has co-authored two New York Times bestsellers. He says that he knows of major publishers that accept manuscripts they suspect contain AI-generated text and simply edits them so it’s not obvious.
We talk with Mr. Lisec to get some clarity and context on where Generative AI is finding its way into publishing, and what U.S. Copyright Law has to say about it.
Guest:
Joshua Lisec, Certified Ghostwriter (California State University, Long Beach)
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Transcript
Mike Kiniry
From WGCU News, this is Gulf Coast Life. I'm Mike Kiniry. Thanks for joining us. As generative AI continues its meteoric and disruptive rise, a recent controversy emerged around a novel called Shy Girl. It's the first known instance of a major publisher, in this case Hachette, canceling a book due to suspected AI generation. Shy Girl is a horror novel written by Mia Ballard. It was originally self published in early 2025. After getting significant online attention and positive reviews, Hachette Book Group acquired it and published it in the UK in late 2025 with a major US release scheduled for the spring of 2026. But accusations of AI use arose online and the New York Times published an expose and a day later Hachette officially pulled the plug and issued a statement reaffirming its commitment to quote original creative expression and noted that authors are required to disclose any use of AI. Mia Ballard has consistently denied using AI to write Shy Girl and blamed a freelance acquaintance that she had hired to edit the original self-published version, claiming the editor must have used AI without her knowledge. My guest today, Joshua Lysak, is an acclaimed ghostwriter who has ghostwritten more than 110 books and co-authored 2 New York Times bestsellers. He says that the recent Shy Girl cancellation is just the tip of the iceberg, and that he knows of major publishers that accept manuscripts that they suspect contain AI-generated text and simply edit them so it's not obvious. I spoke recently with Mr. Lisec to get some clarity and context on where generative AI is finding its way into publishing and what US copyright law has to say about it. Let's hear that conversation now.
Mike Kiniry
Joshua Lisec is an author and certified ghostwriter. Welcome to Gulf Coast Life, Joshua. It's good to talk to you.
Joshua Lisec
Hey, Mike. Thanks for having me on. Glad to be here.
Mike Kiniry
So before we get into the AI stuff that I do want to dig into, I want to get to you some of your backstory. Were words and language and reading and writing important to you early on in your life.
Joshua Lisec
Yes, that's right. I was homeschooled and in those days prior to pod creation and all manner of online homeschool experiences. It was very much a self-directed time. And I recall that one of my, I guess you could call it childhood hobbies was going down to the dank basement and getting out and reading the entirety of the bicentennial edition of the Encyclopedia Americana, which my mother had purchased at a library book sale for less than $20.
Mike Kiniry
Well, that's definitely characterizing it as important to you as a young person. Do you remember the first time you wrote something with purpose that wasn't for a school project or anything like that, but you wanted to express yourself in a way that had purpose?
Joshua Lisec
Yes, it was a bit later. I was a teenager. I was between 13 and 14 years old. And I began what I thought would be an interesting fantasy novel. Now, to keep in mind, this was around the time of the theatrical releases of adaptations of first the Lord of the Rings trilogy and then the Chronicles of Narnia films. And so that sort of thing was on everyone's minds. And I decided I would pick up and read the source material for those again, or rather reread them. And I thought, hey, this looks like it'd be fun to do. I would like to create an enjoyable reading experience for others just like this. And so I sort of began and then got quite a bit into it and got a bit confused between the world building that has to be done and the actual writing of the thing that has to be done. And eventually that experience got parlayed into writing what turned into an adventure thriller novel, which was my actual first book that I finished in 2012.
Mike Kiniry
And did you get that published somehow?
Joshua Lisec
I did, yes. A teeny tiny publishing house in Washington, DC, together with a prequel novel that I wrote for it. And that is unexpectedly and by completely accidental measures resulted in my launch of a career as a ghostwriter.
Mike Kiniry
So before we talk about the ghostwriting and what all that entails, what books have you put out into the world yourself since that first book in that, was that 2012?
Joshua Lisec
Yes, there are two novels in there. And then I co-authored another novel as more so as a personal project back in 2021, I believe it is. Right around that time, there was a hyper popular genre called lit RPG, which was basically writing fiction as if the protagonist is a player of a video game. In the way that you write the character, the character interacts with menus and interacts with the world as if it is a computer as a video game. It's a sort of experimental niche of fiction that was quite enjoyable. So I did that in 2021 and then I had my first solo authored non-fiction book in 2023 entitled So Good They Call You a Fake, which catalogs all of my experiences, ghost writing more than 80 books over the prior 12 years. And what I've learned by helping authors, let's say, achieve various accolades and successes in their industry, even if they had not been very well known at all prior to releasing their book, but then they sort of skyrocketed off of the fuel that was their book. And many of them were later criticized by, I will say, envious competitors who claim that their meteoric rise was manufactured, dare we say, fake, hence why the book is. entitled So Good They Call You a Fake. It's sort of the next step from Cal Newport's So Good They Can't Ignore You. That's the next step in the internet age is having haters who are in fact your most valuable marketers.
Mike Kiniry
Is that So Good a series? It looks like there was a second one listed on Amazon or somewhere I found it.
Joshua Lisec
Yes, that's right. I wrote an e-book follow-up that's a sort of a case study that is in the sociopolitical realm, how one can transmute immensely negative press into popularity and success. It's a sort of a public relations, unexpected public relations case study.
Mike Kiniry
Fascinating. So do you remember when you first learned of the term or idea of someone being a ghost writer?
Joshua Lisec
Yes, and ironically enough, it was after I had already become a ghostwriter. I mentioned those two fiction pieces in 2012 and 2013, kind of that period. two independent of one another, readers of mine, both of them were senior citizens, but they both found my novel one way or another when I was doing author panels and book signings and taking selfies with fans and all that sort of thing. One does to market a book at book fairs and such. Well, these two individuals, they found my novel, they read it and they both finished it and they loved it. And they both asked me the exact same question. Interestingly enough, it was a verbatim And they did not know each other, these two individuals. And they said to me, Joshua, I have wanted to write a book longer than you've been alive. At the time I was 21, 22 years old, which is quite interesting. It was the exact same question. And then they asked me if I would help them write their books. But here's what's interesting. They did not want to author novels. They wanted to publish their memoirs and they did not want it to read like a Wikipedia article. Both of them made that same reference, by the way. It was so bizarre that they both asked me the same question and had the same context for it, which to this day fascinates because they did not know each other and they don't even live anywhere in the same area, these two readers. And that's how I became a ghost writer, is I said, okay, fine, sure, I'll help you with your book. You know, I'll write your life story like it's a novel, you know, it's like based on a true story where this dialogue and setting descriptions. And I felt this and he moved here. And then again, writing it like it's a novel rather than I was born here, I grew up here, my parents were this because nobody wants to read that.
Mike Kiniry
You know, I'm thinking it through as you're describing it. And when you're creating fiction, you're creating characters, you have to create them sort of from whole cloth, but maybe they're based on somebody that you've met or whatever. But in this case, it's kind of like you could channel that person's personality and who they know in order to help you craft that story. Does that make sense?
Joshua Lisec
Yes, memoirs are sort of the novelization of your real life story is how I thought about it, where you're not going to include every single detail. You're going to include what's important. Well, how do you decide what's important? Well, what did your life mean? What was it all for? When you ask these sorts of questions of yourself as a memoir author, I realized my role as a ghostwriter was more closer to a shrink therapist Perhaps, which is why I ultimately became a certified hypnotist, by the way, is that is a sort of modality of therapy that allows the unlocking of memories and the. more effective communication of multi-sensory experiences to create, or rather to induce in readers a trance-like state where time kind of dilates and they just feel themselves enthralled in the book. And that's how I write all of my books now, is to create an enthralling hypnotic experience for readers to enjoy it.
Mike Kiniry
Fascinating. So you went to California State University, Long Beach, which I've learned is the place where one can go to become a certified ghost writer. Can you explain what all that is and what that certification process is like?
Joshua Lisec
Yes, it was billed as a master's degree level, rigorous academic experience. And I joined that in 2017. And the interesting thing about it is, as far as I know, I was the only person in the program, at least at that time, to have ever ghostwritten a book before, or one of the only. But as far as I know, I was the only one who had ever ghostwritten books before. By that point, I was somewhere between 20 I would say 28 and 31 books, non-fiction books that had ghostwritten at that point. And it was a fascinating experience because the way that it was conducted, the classes, is the assignments were assigned and then you were told how the assignments would be graded after you completed the assignment. It was fascinating. And I later learned that that's how a number of master's degree programs actually are, as you are there to demonstrate proficiency. You're not exactly there to learn. It's more so show us what you got. And it was a fascinating experience. And of course, I completed that at California State and then later received the certification through the National Guild of Hypnotists as a hypnotist. And as far as I know, and I do know this to be correct, I am the only person in the world who has both certifications, who is a certified ghostwriter and a certified hypnotist. And I now joke that the overlap is that I ghostwrite hypnosis scripts, a long form for print for my author's readership.
Mike Kiniry
So how do you become connected to, I guess, clients? I don't know what the right terminology is. Your website says that you've helped ghostwrite or you've ghostwritten more than 110 books. So how does one connect with somebody who wants to, well, let me first ask you this. Of the books that you've published, how many of them are you unable to tell us what they were? Most of them, all of them, some of them.
Joshua Lisec
The vast majority prior to about 2020 or so. It's like the first almost decade of my experiences. And then since then, there have been a select few who I had a confidentiality non-disclosure agreement with given their placement. And then there are also those who given their character, I simply do not announce publicly that I worked on them because I've come to disagree with their ideas or things came out later about those individuals. that I do not want to be associated with at all, perhaps to the chagrin of those authors. But it is the vast majority. And the funny thing is, I realized more recently that many authors don't actually care if everyone knows that they had a ghostwriter. And the reason I learned this was because as I began marketing myself and my services on social media, people began asking about previous books that I'd done. They began asking, hey, can you teach me how to write as well? I don't want to write a book, but I want to write white papers for my company or I want to start a Substack, for example, and blog over there. And those inquiries resulted in me creating a series of writing courses, both for long-form and short-form uses in business. And I have more than a dozen courses now in that series, which I was able to register a trademark for called The Best Way to Say It. And I've had roughly 6,000... buyers of those courses since 2020. And it was through that experience that people began asking if they could put my name on the book that I had ghostwritten. Maybe, okay, can I mention you the acknowledgement? Maybe I could put you as the editor, you know, or can I even put the prepositional phrase with Joshua Lysac on the front cover? That way more people will want to buy it because it's, you know, you're affiliated with it. So I became an anti-ghost writer, I suppose, no longer a ghost. And I guess that is the great irony of my profession. Since ChatGPT and other generative AI have released, there has been a marked not decline, but collapse. in demand for ghost writing services from the vast majority of the market. Let's say the demand for ghost writing, if you look at like price point, it's closer to a barbell than a bell curve where the vast majority of people are looking, you know, kind of for a mid-market type. Nowadays, you're either looking for, okay, I want to spend 50 bucks or less to write a 50,000 word book, or my budget is more than $50,000. for a 50,000 word book. There's been a mass hollowing out, and I've done a number of interviews and explained this. And I did see it coming, frankly, back in 2018 when I read a sample from GPT-2, of course, 3, which became ChatGPT under OpenAI. And I read that at the time, 2018. I was standing on a Panera Bread waiting for a sandwich. And lo and behold, I'm reading this piece. And of course, the third AI at the time was, let's say, considerably terrible when you compare it to anything written by a human. But here's the thing. It read to me, because I had previously done some teaching in a public school system in Ohio, it read to me like it was written by a middle schooler, a human middle schooler. And back in 2015, I had seen an interview of an AI researcher named Demis Hassabis. His company was later acquired by Google's DeepMind, which eventually, if you follow the track, you have a line from that to Bard to now Gemini, going back to DeepMind that Google purchased. And Demis, in a documentary that he had done and some interviews he'd given, he explained how he trained AI by having it figure out via the machine learning and reinforcement learning algorithms to figure out how to play classic video games, like side-scroller video games like Super Mario, and by having it learn via thousands of iterations of play to go from basically not knowing how to play the game at all, to superhuman world speed record of speed of perfectly completing these video games like someone has been playing it literally since the day of its creation. A human. But this only took a matter of hours or days to go from doesn't know how to play the video game, to is literally the world's best player ever. And it was an AI that he trained. And I saw that in 2015. So I see this middle school level writing from GPT-2 in 2018. And because of that background with Demis, I knew where this was going to be going. And I said to myself, we are so screwed as a profession. Ghostwriting is done. Copywriting, it's over. Blog writing, it's not going to be a thing anymore. So I then realized, well, if I'm going to have any kind of a chance to get ghostwriting clientele, I need to stop being a ghostwriter. I can't be anonymous. I need to build my own personal brand so that when people say, I want to write a book, the very next thing they tell themselves is not, maybe I should get a ghostwriter. I want them to say to themselves, I want to write a book. I guess I need Joshua Lisec.
Mike Kiniry
You know, I started, I mean, I've followed the world of AI since prior to GPT-2. I remember when it first came out. And so when GPT, or ChatGPT, as we all know, it came out I was poking around at it then too. When it first came out, could you have imagined it had, would it be as advanced as it is now to where literally, and I'm not advocating for it or defending these books, but 10s of thousands of full-length novels are being published online by people who just tell one of these language models to write a story. Could you have extrapolated it happening that fast into that kind of creative realm?
Joshua Lisec
Yes, I did. And in 2023, I pointed out in my books, they call you a fake. I've got the page open here in front of me, page 17, where lay out how all visual arts would be wrecked, as kids like to say, R-E-K-T. The visual arts, the creative arts, literature, all manner of business writing and marketing communications would get wrecked by AI in very short order. And I explain that AI is the things that no other business offers had ever been before in human history, which is it's good, it's fast, it's cheap. It used to be that you had to pick two for any product or service in any industry, in any niche, anywhere in the world. You pick two. But AI presents for the first time the innovation of all three. Now, is it great? I don't think so. Most people don't think so. But is it good enough relative to its price and its speed for uses? Absolutely. Now the issue with using generative AI. Besides the fact that if people know it's AI, they tend to trust it less. Now this is the great irony, perhaps paradox, where the New York Times did this poll, I believe there was something like 86,000 respondents to compare AI written versus human written writing passages, compare which one you like better. And 56% of respondents preferred the AI written response. And one of them that was most stark to me was a piece by Carl Sagan. And New York Times readers prefer the AI at a 2 to 1 ratio, preferring AI over literally the most significant science communicator of the 20th century, which is, yeah, that's what we mean when we use the word wrecked. Okay. Now that said, again, if you look at polls by like Forrester, Gartner, and other services that survey consumers. People report that if they believe that AI was used in the creation of the material, they trust it less, they deem it less credible, they sort of have negative sentiment around it. And yet if they don't know it and the organization gets away with it, frankly, they prefer it. They prefer it. This is an irony about it. Now the issue in my opinion for authors is copyright. So AI There's a page from, I believe it's copyright.gov slash AI, which lays out from the United States Copyright Office what you have to do with AI generated material in order to make it something that can be copyrighted. You can't simply put in the prompt, get the output, copy and paste the output and call it yours. It's effectively, now this is not legal advice, It's effectively public domain material. Anyone can copy and paste it, whether you're using it to write your website copy or using it for your book or using it for anything else. Trademark is different though. Trademark is different. But on copyright, you have to sufficiently edit, revise, restructure, otherwise refine the AI generated output to show that there was human creative involvement in it because only human created material is eligible for copyright. The equivalent that's given in the piece, the guidance on AI from the US Copyright Office, is if a human takes a picture, the human has the copyright. If perhaps a curious chimpanzee or other ape or perhaps a monkey gets a hold of a camera and takes a picture, Is that copyright then held by the Simian? It is in fact not held by the Simian. Copyright is only for human generated. So the humor I find in this is that AI intelligence is considered legally equivalent to the intelligence of an ape, which is both hilarious and terrifying at the same time. The legal equivalent of apes, AI is already at that level, legally speaking, I suppose you might say. Where copyright is concerned. And the metaphor that's given, or rather the comparison for AI and copyright, is just because a photographer uses a tool like Photoshop doesn't mean that, oh, well, you use Photoshop, so it's not a real photo. The use of this technology, that modality, that methodology. again, the tech that's used does not strip the humanity from it. In the same way, you can use AI, again, according to this reading of the AI guidance from the Copyright Office, but you have to demonstrate there is human ingenuity, involvement, and creativity. So now what I'm getting a lot of, and again, this is neither legal nor business advice, but the inquiries I'm getting now from a lot of authors are they've generated a manuscript or whole manuscript from AI. They kind of like the gist of it, but it doesn't feel right. It doesn't fully reflect their ideas. And they want it restructured, revised, etc. And they want it, I like to use the word, they want me to rehuman it. And so, of course, this past week I released a new course from the Best Way to Say It series on how to edit AI in order to rehuman your writing.
Mike Kiniry
So the implications though, A, the copyright office, what does sufficiently mean? I mean, that seems just like such a big tangled mess of who's going to prove what, how to me.
Joshua Lisec
Yes, I mean, the human authorship requirement, I think there's a level of understanding that's required, in my opinion, to sort of figure out what do we mean by copyright protection that is, quote, here's the key, the quote, works of authorship Okay. What does it mean to be, quote, created by a human being? Unquote. And there is a specific line on the human authorship requirement that, and I will read it to you. It says, let's see, the work is basically, I like the use of the adverbs. There's a lot of adverb involvement here, which is a little bit suspicious in my mind because I'm, fans of mine will know that I'm not a fan of adverbs. I call them adverbs for that reason. So it says the work is basically one of human authorship where the computer or other device is merely an assisting instrument. that's interesting. And the traditional elements of authorship must be actually conceived and executed by man, not by machine. Gently paraphrasing it and explains like the literary, the artistic, musical expressions or elements of selection or arrangement. So I will agree with you. It does feel like it is rather vague, rather broad. It does say that it has to be the author's, here's a quote, direct quote from the copyright guidance, own original mental conception to which the author gave visible form. So this is interesting. It does seem like what's going to be key if there are ever high profile copyright disputes within the publishing industry of books. It's going to be key that there is something like a paper trail to demonstrate, quote, author's own original mental conception to which they gave visible form. So if you are using AI as assistance in any way, or if your ghostwriter is or your editor or however you got this going on, having some sort of a trail to demonstrate the inclusion of traditional elements of authorship and that they are human designed is going to be key and not having just the output. So it says it can contain AI generated material, but it must also contain sufficient human authorship to support a copyright claim. That is a direct quote from the AI policy guidance from the US Copyright Office.
Mike Kiniry
I was poking around on the internet preparing for this and I came across a Reddit thread just from yesterday where, you know, we obviously now are to the point where music is being created by these language models and it's pretty much indiscernible from human music and videos being created and we're getting really close to indiscernible from something that's real. But with text on a screen, the person was supposing that, are we already in a world where you can't guarantee anything you read on a screen was actually created by a human? And I think that's a question worth considering. What do you think?
Joshua Lisec
I think there will probably be something mainstreamed and it will not be used everywhere. I think it will be mainstreamed, some sort of a certification or verification from an independent third party that purports to verify 100% human made in a given creation. Maybe these will be stickers, maybe these will be actual certifications that have like a badge and you can go back and click the link to confirm that it's real. You know, much the same way, oh, this is a Better Business Bureau verified, you know, membership company or This is a 100% human made creation, artwork or otherwise. And I'm already seeing those notices show up in documentaries on YouTube and in music that's uploaded. And I think that's in response to, for example, I'm part of a swing dance group in Ohio. And one of the board members of the club, he had mentioned that one afternoon he pulled up some three hour playlist 1940s swing music. And he just jammed into it, he loved it. And he said about an hour into this three hour thing, he realized, wait a second, I've been listening to swing since I was a kid. And I have never heard a single one of these songs before. It took him an hour of a three hour to get to the point of thinking, wait a second, this is AI.
Mike Kiniry
I came across a website not too long ago, which somebody has hooked up Anthropic to an interface and it's a 24-hour radio channel and every music thing you hear is being created for that moment.
Joshua Lisec
Yeah, the live streaming of AI created material. You know, there are so many interesting use cases and I have children and in my homeschooling and other education experiences with my kids, I introduce them to the world of AI and some fun age-appropriate uses for it. so that it's not scary. But at the same time, when my son gets assigned an assignment to write something, we are not pulling out ChatGPT. he is writing it with pen and with paper, in a notebook or on an appropriate educational slate of some sort. So that, let's say, reasoning, logic, and thinking ability is not stymied by AI use or overuse.
Mike Kiniry
Where do you see this heading? I mean, there's lawsuits. There was the Shy Girl book from Hachette that got pulled because of AI claims. I mean, is there a future where any of the main big 5 publishing companies are putting out stuff that has been copyrighted with the disclaimer that AI was used? Do you see that happening?
Joshua Lisec
I do, and I believe it's already happening because I have been approached by acquisitions editors, including one CEO of mainstream publishing companies, asking me off the record, no recording, you know, taking me aside behind the booth type of question. Almost like they're saying, hey, Joshua. So we're getting a lot of AI generated manuscripts from our authors who are famous, worldly renowned, well-known individuals. So we're not going to cancel them or call it out or anything because their books are going to sell. We've been onboarding contractors and subcontractors to edit their manuscripts to remove all the tells of AI and rehuman them. Do you want to be one of those editors? That I think is the future. The issue with The Shy Girl is because, in my opinion, it was published prior to acquisition by Hachette and it had an editor that was not under the purview of the publishing house. And so the AI scandal is based on the material that existed prior to its traditional publishing industry release. In my personal opinion, I don't know the parties involved, but in my personal opinion, the reason Shy and Girl was canceled and pulled is not because she used AI, it's because she got caught.
Mike Kiniry
you said when you first read some stuff that came out of GPT-2, it sounded like a middle schooler. what if there's a future, and maybe there is, where straight out of the box, first prompt, you get stuff that's like the best writing any of us have ever read. You know, what do we do then?
Joshua Lisec
I think it's going to get there once AI has given haptic feedback. One of the reasons why AI writing is a little stilted, it's off, quote unquote, is because the artificial intelligence generating it does not have access to multi-sensory feedback, what things actually look like, feel like, sound like, having that spatial awareness, aroma, smells, touch, texture, these sorts of experiences. So they use lots of visual metaphors and analogies. It'll say, it's like the worst thing that could have ever happened. Imagine the Wild West and it's And they're using a metaphor or an analogy completely unrelated to the subject. Excuse me, this is a book about industrial machinery of the 1790s. Why are you giving me a Wild West metaphor? It'll do that a lot because it doesn't have access to what real world experiences are like. So I believe the great revolution from AI is going to be in the instance of haptic feedback in which the algorithms, the LLMs are aware either in their training or in real time how things look, feel, sound, and other sub-modalities of the five plus multi-sensory experiences of humanity. And I don't think this is a bad thing necessarily. What I do think is that the people in the future who will thrive in an AI environment are going to be those who had a proper ability to train their own brains without over-reliance on AI. They learn how to write things. The authors and the writers and the creators and literature who I believe gain the most from AI use and assistance are those who are already top 1% competent in creating. And that's probably what it's like, metaphorically speaking. To use an actual relevant metaphor, it's a bit like when we went from a largely agricultural economy to the end of the industrial revolutionary period, where the vast majority of those farmers quit and did something else in the cities. But those who remained went from oxes and plow horses and hand plows, et cetera, to farming equipment and machinery, and their productivity increased multiple thousandfold if you look at the numbers, their productivity, those who remained. And I think that we'll be seeing that productivity, that output being increased. time saving, profit increase, all manner of things. But then that results in the displacement of a large number of individuals from those lines of work. So it's a post-industrial revolution that we're experiencing with AI. And in that time and place, people move to the cities to find work. So what's our analogous equivalent to people moving to the cities off the farms to find work? In this case, the farms are professions where AI use is now ubiquitous. and a team goes from, let's say, 50 developers to just five who are using AI agents, which is a real case study I'm aware of, by the way. What are those 495 other people going to do now? What's the city they get to move to, so to speak?
Mike Kiniry
There are so many things that I've talked about in recent years on this show that would have seemed like Star Trek 5 or 10 years ago, and they're not. And that's just fascinating times that we're in. So I appreciate you taking time to talk to us today.
Joshua Lisec
It's my pleasure. Thank you so much, Mike.
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